Welcome to REINVENTED with Jen Eckhart! In this special last episode of 2021, Jen goes one-on-one with New York Times best-selling author, entertainment journalist, and award-winning producer, suicide prevention advocate, and daughter of comedic legend Joan Rivers - Melissa Rivers. Dr. Jon Goldfinger, the CEO of Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services, also joins the discussion as a nationally recognized pediatrician and advocate for mental health services for children and families, including in minority and low-income communities.
They discuss reinventing one's mental health, how to cope in the aftermath of losing a loved one, challenging the stigma attached to issues like suicide, how to utilize social media in a healthy capacity, and the importance of not shying away from discussing difficult topics. Melissa also shares life lessons her late mother, Joan Rivers, instilled in her.
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REINVENTED With Melissa Rivers & Dr. Jon Goldfinger
JE: When I first came up with the concept of this show and what it means to reinvent oneself, I thought first of the many entrepreneurs, celebrities, athletes, business leaders, and disruptors out there who overcame incredible obstacles to get to where they are. Sometimes, one's journey of reinvention isn't always about changing career paths or finding love.
What if it's reinventing one's mental health? What about reinventing one's mindset, behavioral patterns, and capacity to cope with the loss of a loved one, addiction, or mental illness? What if it's reinventing one's mindset to challenge the stigma attached to issues like suicide, the tenth leading cause of death in the US? Even though it's deeply personal and uncomfortable to talk about, we have to talk about it because if we don't discuss it or if we don't challenge the stigma, the problem will only continue to worsen.
Did you know that in 2019, 47,511 Americans died by suicide? That’s about 50,000 people. In 2019, there were an estimated 1.3 million suicide attempts. The statistics are staggering and they're only getting worse. I am so deeply grateful for the next two guests that are joining me on this special episode of the show because they are on the front lines of combating the mental health epidemic in the US.
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For my first guest, I am ecstatic, over the moon, and so excited to welcome New York Times best-selling author, entertainment journalist, award-winning producer, and suicide prevention advocate, Melissa Rivers on the show. Melissa, is there any title you don't have?
MR: I'm sure there are some. There are things that my friends have called me, like bitch, annoying, and beautiful.
JE: You check all the boxes. I'm so thrilled to have you.
MR: A title I don't have is competitive hot dog eater.
JE: I don't think you want that one on your resumé.
MR: You were asking.
JE: My second guest is not a competitive hotdog eater, but he is the CEO of Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services, Dr. Jon Goldfinger. He's a nationally recognized pediatrician and an advocate for mental health services for children. His inclusive approach to health equity and policy has transformed countless lives. Dr. Goldfinger, the non-professional hotdog eater, welcome also on the show. I'm so thrilled to have you both here.
JG: Thank you. Hotdogs are my favorite food, so if I had to get another title, that is something I would go after.
JE: Melissa, to you first. you joined the board of directors of Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services, a leading LA-based nonprofit which has provided free mental health, substance use, and suicide prevention services for over 75 years. You spoke candidly and very openly about your own father's suicide in 1987 when the topic was taboo.
MR: My mother and I were the first to speak openly about it, much more my mother than me at that point, but I was soon on her heels because I was still in college. It made a huge impact. At the time, there was, and it still exists, a group called Suicide Survivors, which are survivors of people who lost someone to suicide. We used to go to all the events. People would walk up to us and say thank you.
JE: You were a trailblazer with that. You've inspired so many people along the way. To preface this, it's no secret to my audience that you are the daughter of the comedic legend, fashion icon, the icon of everything, the legend, Joan Rivers. Not just the world of comedy but the entire world mourned the loss of your mother. She made me laugh like no other, and people of all ages. I am curious. In what ways have you reinvented your mind, daily survival patterns, and capacity to cope in the aftermath of such loss?
MR: My ability to cope started with having to deal with my father's suicide when I was so young. The press coverage was insane, and that was before we had 24-hour news cycles or TMZ. I could not imagine what it would be like now. It’s probably more similar to what I experienced with my mother. In a weird way, that prepared me for the surrounding craziness when my mom died because I'd already been through the cycle once and had to mentally ratchet up to be prepared for the more intense version.
JE: The press can be relentless when it comes to issues like this.
MR: Luckily, for the most part, my mother's, it wasn’t negative. I wasn’t dealing with it with my father. It was a much more tumultuous time in my parents' lives, careers, and all that. It was a little bit more combative. The thing I learned, which is the thing I still used getting through my mom, is it is okay to have days where you feel like you can't get out of bed. Allow yourself to have those moments. Acknowledge that it's hard. You don't have to pretend it's not. You get up and put one foot in front of the other as many times as you can that day. Every day, you might be able to take another step.
JE: It's like Demi Lovato’s song. It's okay not to be okay.
MR: As I always say to people, and this has to go with grief in general, is it sucks. Jon says it so much more eloquently and elegantly than I do. It sucks, flat-out. Grief sucks.
Grief sucks, but know that it's okay to be not okay.
JE: Let's call it what it's. It sucks.
MR: Losing something to suicide sucks, but there are more of us out there than people realize. You try and be like, “I’ve been there. If I can get through it, you can get through it.”
JE: I love that. Dr. Jon, piggybacking off what she said, suicide and suicide attempts affect the health and well-being of friends, loved ones, coworkers, and the whole community. When people die by suicide, their surviving family and friends may experience shock, anger, guilt, symptoms of depression, or anxiety. You name it.
MR: I had all of them.
JE: Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Jon, but Didi Hirsch in LA is home to the nation's first suicide prevention center and the only one that offers comprehensive services to people affected by suicide. Can you tell our audience about your integrated approach and strategies for tackling this issue?
JG: We created the first support groups for people who had survived a loss, as in Melissa and her family's case, and even more, the first support groups for those who suffered an attempt. For a very long time, it's been a focus of Didi Hirsch to erase the stigma of mental illness. Part of doing that is our responsibility in healthcare to create services that reach out to people where they are and whatever situation they're in, and not act like because it's a mental health-related challenge or a suicide-related challenge, they're any less deserving of our care, our therapy, and our treatments than those with diabetes, asthma, or cancer.
Unfortunately, in the United States, nearly 100% of people can access physical healthcare, but if it's a mental health challenge, only 40%. If it's a substance challenge where you're closely tied to mental illness, it's only 10%. If it's an urgent mental health crisis, you can call 911 and 100% of people can get an ambulance to come. If you're having an emotional crisis or thoughts of suicide and you call the national hotline, even though we're incredible, we know we're still only covering about 10% of the community. Mental health is health. We can do that by teaching people, in general, to advocate for healthcare that treats the mind and body as inseparable.
JE: I like what you said that you are offering support to people and families of suicide attempts. That word caught my attention because what people don't understand is suicide's preventable. Everybody has a role to play to help save lives and create healthy and strong individuals and families by having these open discussions. I’m curious. What's a piece of advice that you can give to readers out there who are tuning in who might be personally struggling or who has a loved one who is and they don't know what to do? They don't know how to help them. What advice would you give them?
JG: The first and most critical piece of advice is to pick up the phone. It’s safety first. You can chat with us at CrisisChat.org. Pick up the phone or text us at 1-800-273-TALK or 1800-273-8255. Didi Hirsch and nearly 200 other suicide-specialized crisis centers are standing by 24/7 in English and many other languages to be there. That goes for anyone with thoughts of suicide or who's dealing with a loved one, whether it is a family member or friend, who expressed thoughts of suicide. We support both 24/7. We're there.
It's important for people to understand this is not just advertised as a national suicide prevention lifeline. We are in your backyard. The calls get routed to people in your communities who are there for you. Therefore, they know your local system. Albeit fragmented, they know your local system of mental healthcare. They know how to get you additional support. We will even call back for those at significant risk to try to help support you and navigate resources.
The second most critical factor, in addition to getting our expert help on the lifeline, is to be there for someone. It is to recognize the warning signs of suicide, things like giving away belongings, talking about hopelessness, and increased risky behaviors, and then not being afraid to ask. People think there's a myth. If you ask someone, “Have you thought of killing yourself or thought of suicide?” that they'll do it. That's false. If anything, that question itself could save their lives. Step up to the plate and ask them.
Mental Health: If you know someone suicidal, don't be afraid to ask them. People think that if you ask someone to kill themselves, they'll do it. That's absolutely false. If anything, asking could save their lives.
If it's yourself, don't be afraid. You are one of the millions of people who have considered suicide. Especially young people, Black and Brown children, and LGBTQ populations, you are not alone. There are many of us suffering and there are many of us there to help. We all need to be there for anyone who's suffering. For those who are suffering, recognize that help is out there. Hope is not lost. Please reach out.
JE: You are not alone. Not now, tomorrow, or any day.
MR: My mom used to say this saying. “If you were sitting around a table and everybody put all their troubles on the table and you could pick whichever ones you wanted, 99% of the time, you would take yours back.”
JE: Isn't that a powerful saying? To bring some levity to the conversation, your mother, Joan Rivers, was larger than life. She lived every moment.
MR: For a very short woman, she was quite large.
JE: She did everything large, like in Texas. Everything was large. That's why people loved her so much. If there's one thing I've learned about grief, it's that. It echoes what you said earlier. You don't want to grieve 24/7. You want to be able to laugh. Your mother was the queen of laughter. One of my favorite all-time quotes of hers is, “Life goes by fast. Enjoy it. Calm down. It's all funny.” I say that so many times to people because we're in this overly sensitive society.
MR: Don't get me started on that. What you're addressing is the fact that, and this is for mental health across the board encompassing everything from suicide to depression to everything about mental health, the more we talk about it, the less frightening it becomes and the more it can become part of the conversation.
The numbers of what happened in 2020 with younger people went skyrocketing through the roof. For me, so much about it is like, “I'm not alone.” That's one of the messages that my mother and I were always trying to share. Suicide and mental health do not care what color you are, how rich or poor you are, or how short or tall you are. If you're fat, thin, pretty, a man, or a woman, it does not care.
JE: It doesn’t care how much money you have, either.
MR: Nothing. It doesn't mean anything. Once people get their heads around that, it's another step toward being able to truly talk about it and understand that mental health is health. If you scratch the surface of anybody, you're going to find depression or fear. Everybody's got all these things inside them. It's about learning to manage them.
Mental health is just health. Mental health doesn't discriminate. You are not alone.
JG: If I can lay down two nuggets that we've learned that are so powerful, it's you can reduce the risk of someone dying by 30% by being there as social support. It turns out that those who have someone there for them and the hope that they have someone there are significantly less likely to attempt suicide. We looked at the callers to the suicide hotline in Los Angeles. This will resonate. We looked at the ZIP codes and where they were most likely to call from. It was the tale of two LAs, Beverly Hills and South Central. It did not matter.
Mental Health: You can reduce the risk of someone dying by 30% by just being there as social support. Those who have someone are less likely to attempt suicide.
MR: Mental health and suicide prevention sadly have an amazing champion in the House with Jamie Raskin. It's very sad that tragedy has to bring people to the forefront. It's good news, bad news. The bad news is his family is suffering. The good news is we have an amazing advocate in Washington. One of the things about Didi Hirsch that I want to loop back to is not just do we have mental health services and a suicide prevention line, but we have a disaster line and a crisis line for people.
This pertains so much to the pandemic, who are going through disasters. If you've been flooded by a hurricane and you do not know what to do and are in a panic, Didi Hirsch even offers support there. Sometimes, people don't want to necessarily kill themselves, but they’re at their wit’s end. They don't know what to do and they're in a panic. If you don't want to call a suicide prevention hotline, we have a disaster hotline.
JE: How great is that? That it's so needed.
MR: That folds into the whole thing with the pandemic. People weren't going to kill themselves, but they were like, “I've lost my job. What do I do?”
JE: You are filling in an actual need in this country. That is so great and so admirable. Maybe we could expand Didi Hirsch throughout the nation like that.
MR: We're working on that.
JE: Call me when that happens. Come back on the show. We can talk about it.
MR: I have to say. I got to give Jon credit. Are you a year with us at Didi Hirsch as the new CEO?
JG: Yeah.
MR: He has made strategic partnerships that are going to push our concept and Didi Hirsch to the national level.
JE: I want to shift the discussion quickly to talk about social media. The dreaded S-word, as I will call it. I was reading something that, according to Science Daily, problematic social media use has been associated with depression, anxiety, and social isolation. I say in the trailer of this show that society tricks us into believing that folks who achieve great success at an early age are otherworldly or magical. The truth is the vast majority achieve success much later in life and their journey isn't always easy. While some might be ringing the bell at the New York Stock Exchange, others might be ringing the cancer-free bell.
I have my own thoughts and opinions. Social media is one big constant highlight reel. You don't see someone's internal struggle. You only see the good days, not the bad ones. I'm curious, Melissa, when you find yourself in a dark place and your mind starts to wander like you see that friend in Tahiti or you see that person who got engaged.
MR: I’m like, “Everyone seems to be living their best life but me.”
JE: I'm so happy for everyone living their best lives, especially when they put it in their bio, like, “Living my best life.” I’m like, “Thanks for the reminder.”
MR: I know that when I look on social media, I'm like, “Everyone seems to be living their best life but me. I’m sitting at my desk with a pile of work in St. Bart’s.” Bite me.
JE: I am curious, though. You and I are very similar in this respect, Melissa. What systems do you have in place to reframe, reinvent, if you will, and shift your mindset? You’re like, “This is crazy pants.” Let's be real here because you're pretty funny with your Instagram. I've been following you for years. You post some funny stuff.
MR: I get crazy with all these amazing fashion people I follow. I'm like, “I don’t want to look like that.” I follow Architectural Digest, One King' Lane, and Town & Country. I look at that as trying to be more aspirational. How do I shift? I shift because it’s one giant highlight reel. Am I allowed to swear on this?
JE: Yeah. We keep it real.
MR: Everybody's full of shit that their lives are what they look like on Instagram. I go back to what I said in the beginning. If everybody put all their problems on the table, you would take yours back. A lot of the influencers that are popular are ones that are honest. I want to see more people being more honest. That doesn't mean soap boxy because we have a lot of celebrities that are very soap boxy on their, “We don't look like this.” I'm like, “You're right. We don't. We’ve done hair and makeup for two hours.” Everyone is out with body shaming. It's like, “Stop.” For me, the shift is to understand that it's like looking at a glossy magazine.
If everybody put their problems on the table, you would take yours back.
JE: Social media is not real life. Twitter is not real life.
MR: We don't have Kendall Jenner and Bella Hadid in some wonderful pose in a gown in our backyards. It's a glossy magazine. You can't take it seriously. I, personally, and it is hard to believe, gravitate towards the people I follow that are funny. I'm in this place where all I do is expand the picture and look at everybody's legs. I'm like, “My skin is getting saggy on mine.” I went to a dark place. I was like, “I will never be any of these things anymore. I will never be in a bikini. I will never be doing this. I will never be doing that,” but you go there.
JE: You look fantastic. You're human.
MR: Everyone's like, “It is body acceptance.” I will never have body acceptance. I'm a neurotic Jew. I will never have it.
JE: Dr. Jon, you're in a room with two women. Go with it.
JG: I don't go on there for the same reasons, though, in fairness. I don't like being manipulated. If you think about it, the whole point of social media, how did it start? It was Facebook likes. They learned very quickly that people want to be liked. We all know it.
Mental Health: Social media started because of Facebook likes. They knew very quickly that people want to be liked and that brought out the worst of people's narcissism.
JE: It’s validation. It’s feeling important, seen, and heard.
JG: Everybody wants you to watch them. It's the work of people's narcissism, usually. It’s their insecurity that makes them do it. If we studied how many people post all this stuff on social media against their security, you'd probably find it's a lot more insecure people on there posting these things. I usually don't plug things, but I would encourage people to watch The Social Dilemma on Netflix. You'll learn that Instagram, Facebook, and all these companies are manipulating you not for the good of your enjoyment but because you are the product. You are the cattle moving to slaughter that they are moving along through likes and what they show you to change your brain to think, “I need to do more. I need to keep scrolling. I need to do this.”
It's addictive on purpose. They are addicting you so that they can sell you to advertisers. You are the product. You are for dinner. If you don't want to be manipulated that way by people who want to bring out the unhealthiest behaviors in you and the unhealthiest feeling about yourself, get off of it. To me, that's the best way to think about it.
MR: the way I've jumped in and the way I've reframed and reinvented it is I went through and got rid of a lot of noise.
JE: You did the purge.
MR: I follow my friends. I follow comedy. I follow Architectural Digest.
JE: That is so healthy.
MR: You follow things that are of genuine interest.
JG: There’s also Thrive Global.
JE: I'm a contributing author for Thrive Global. Arianna Huffington sold the Huffington Post. She started this incredible platform and it sheds light. It publishes thought pieces surrounding mental health, mental wellness, and overall well-being. What she has done and what she's putting out into the universe is so needed, like Didi Hirsch.
JG: It's amazing. We've been talking to Thrive Global Foundation. If you know anybody, put in a good word. My darkest days were when I was seeing patients and felt like a cog in a machine that chewed me up, spit me out, and could care less about me as a physician or a human being working 40 hours straight. Arianna, Thrive Global, and the Thrive Global Foundation, along with the CAA Foundation, have come forward and gone what they call All In for Frontline Workers and Healthcare Professionals. They provided tens of millions of dollars in PPE in equipment. They provided a ton of mental health resources.
They're looking with a lens at the system of healthcare and saying, “Why are doctors more likely to die by suicide than anyone else? Why are healthcare professionals of all kinds so high on the depression, anxiety, and trauma scales?” They're taking that look. Not only as a physician but as an advocate, all of us need these services, especially healthcare professionals. We can't fix a system if the system acts like our mental health doesn't matter.
We can't fix a system if the system acts like our mental health doesn't matter.
Thrive Global is going to change the game with that work. Similarly, I've done some purging and followed organizations that are doing good. If we all got rid of people in their bikini posters, or even better, Facebook changed the algorithm to tell you who was changing the world and who was a narcissist, you would have a much better to figure it out.
JE: I love that idea. It would have different categories and different feeds.
JG: It’ll have a little sticker called Narcissism. We can figure out how to put a narcissist sticker.
JE: Instead of likes, we'll give out a Narcissist sticker.
JG: It may be Do-gooder. Imagine it's the 30 under 30. The 30 under 30 sticker could go to anyone under 30 that we all believed in, not just Forbes. People knew the great work they did and said, “This person is changing the world.” We gave them the World Changer sticker and they got more likes. If Facebook and Instagram cared to help society the way their PR machine says, they would elevate positive behavior and decrease people's unhealthy exposures to social media.
JE: To my audience out there, he's referencing an article that I wrote for Thrive Global. It's debunking the lie or the myth that is 30 under 30. I’m like, “I'm sorry. What? Does that mean I can't be successful at 31, 40, or 57? What is this?”
MR: I’m glad they didn't do a 50 over 50, which I believe they did.
JE: It's catching on.
MR: I believe they did, especially with women. A lot of women who are incredibly successful and incredibly smart do make decisions to pull back in their lives and when to push forward. It’s having to do with kids or a million other things. I have a friend who was a major music producer. She got all the music for movies and helped work with the directors and the whole thing. She had two kids and decided she wanted to not work or just take very selective projects. The youngest is sixteen and she's been working the phones like, “I want to work freelance. I'm back.” She's like, “I know I need this.” Is it going to take her a minute to get back to where she was? Yeah, but not that long. She's going to be running a movie music department in the next five years again and she's 52.
JG: The point is that the age is ageist in either direction. The fact that you make it about people's age tells the population, “You're either this or you're not.” It’s more of this glorifying in a narcissistic way. It’s like, “Let's glorify specific people for accomplishments.” I got news for you. No human being knows how to glorify all the incredible people doing incredible things. You're likely to think that you're promoting good work, but you're ignoring a ton of other good work. What's the point?
JE: This show was designed to bring on people like yourselves, but people from all walks of life. I want to say to the single mom of three kids, the woman who snagged her first book deal at age 50, and the guy saddled with student debt with big entrepreneurial dreams, “It's never too late in life.” You are a living example of that. You both are. You have your own success stories, but let's not cap. Let’s not do the age thing. It’s not necessary.
MR: Honestly, I see it with myself. It's depressing. You can get depressed when you start to think that way.
JE: I was nominated for 30 under 30, which was an honor in and of itself, but I didn't get it. It's okay. I turned around and threw out an article on Thrive Global. There it is. It went viral and people loved it. It resonated. Here we are talking about it.
JG: Whether you call them failures or learning opportunities to reinvent yourself, that is the storyline, no matter when they happen. I have failed, thankfully, and sometimes, intentionally, others not, so many times in my career that I did become a young CEO. It’s not my age of being a CEO of a very large mental health system, but I had to go through a lot to get there. I was failing a lot before I was successful.
Mental Health: Failures or learning opportunities are your storylines, no matter when they happen.
JE: Failing upwards is what it is.
JG: I wasn't eligible for any award show. Maybe you need to not be eligible or you need to not get it, so you reinvent and get to that place where you are changing the game.
JE: Melissa Rivers and Dr. Jon Goldfinger, my enormous thanks to you both for coming on. We hit a little bit of everything during this, but I love that. I appreciate you guys both taking the time.
JG: Thank you for having me.
MR: Thank you.
JE: If you or someone you know is in crisis, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. It's 1 800-273-8255. You can also visit DidiHirsch.org to either donate or receive help. You're not alone. Not now, tomorrow, or any day. Reach out to loved ones. Reach out to that friend who seems to have it all together and who is always the jokester or life of the party because they may be in trouble. Life's short. We have to hold on to each other. Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe to this show. That's available wherever you tune in to shows. Thank you for reading.
Important Links
About Melissa Rivers
Melissa Rivers is the go-to, award-winning host for all things fashion and pop culture, as well as a reality TV star, an actress, and an executive producer. She’s the New York Times bestselling author of numerous books, including her latest, LIES MY MOTHER TOLD ME: TALL TALES FROM A SHORT WOMAN. Her weekly podcast, Melissa Rivers Group Text, tackles celebrity interviews, current events, lifestyle, relationships, parenting, health and wellness, and so much more. It was simply inspired by same daily group chats among Melissa and her friends, but delves a bit deeper. “My podcast is the perfect vehicle for talk in the 21st Century – allowing for numerous points of view, intelligent conversations, a lot of laughter, and a timely and compelling approach to issues we are all confronting,” Melissa shares. “I know listeners enjoy it as much as my guests and I enjoy making it.” Melissa is perhaps best known as an architect and creator of the modern Red Carpet Event Brand through her countless interviews and appearances as a co-host on E! Television, including the globally recognized and iconic hit series, “Fashion Police.” A philanthropist and an advocate, Melissa ardently supports a number of charitable causes including Didi Hirsch Mental Health Services, Our House Grief Support Center and Center For The Art of Performance UCLA among others. In her spare time Melissa enjoys tennis, skiing, surfing, and occasionally sleeping.
About Jonathan Goldfinger
I lead whole-person, whole-family healthcare transformation and business development, with an emphasis on equity, innovation, and strategic partnerships.
Integrated care, a strong digital experience, community/allied supports, and value-based financing are more aligned than people realize. We can prevent tragic losses to childbirth, suicide and overdose, while managing chronic mental and physical illnesses wrought by trauma. It requires leaders to bridge fragmented systems and silos, champion new means of access, and measure outcomes.
I’ve made these things happen across the US with hundreds of millions in public and private funding via Medicaid, PPO and other strategic partnerships. Same for significant policy wins. When we convene diverse voices, strategy, and business acumen to improve access and outcomes, payers, philanthropy, and venture capital invest.
