REINVENTED With U.S. Army Soldier Maura Spence-Carroll

Who said women can’t wear combat boots, fatigues AND tiaras? For the first time ever, REINVENTED welcomes a current active-duty soldier in the U.S. Army on the podcast! And the coolest part? Maura Spence-Carroll has made HISTORY the first-ever active-duty military service member to represent the state of Colorado at the Miss America competition. Hell yeah! This girl takes the idea of reinvention to a WHOLE other level. In honor of Mental Health Awareness Month, Jen and Maura discuss her past struggle with suicide and her mission to end the epidemic of military and veteran suicide. They also talk about her recent trip to the U.S. Pentagon, growing up in a single-parent household and her bold decision to join the U.S. Army at the age of 18. Maura also shares why she decided to compete in Miss America, her ADHD diagnosis and how she will continue to fight the stigma that surrounds receiving mental health care in the military community and beyond.

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REINVENTED With U.S. Army Soldier Maura Spence-Carroll

JE: I’m you host, Jen Eckhart. This is a very special episode of my show. I feel like I say that a lot because I’m biased, and I think every episode is special, but this is the first time I’ve ever had an active-duty soldier in the US Army on this show. The coolest part is she is not only an active duty soldier in the Army, serving as an All-Source Intelligence Analyst, but did I mention she’s made history as the first-ever active duty military service member to represent the State of Colorado and the United States Army at the 100th anniversary Miss America competition? This girl takes the idea of reinvention to a whole other level, and she’s a patriot. Maura Spence-Carroll, welcome to the show.

MSC: Thank you again so much for having me. I’m very excited to get into the nuts and bolts of everything. I have my crown with me if you want me to pull it out at any point.

JE: We will most certainly be having you pull your crown out. It’s not often that I have someone on my show which changes out of her fatigues and combat boots into evening gown attire. I dig the versatility. I love that you show that women can be multifaceted. I also feel especially honored to have you on because I know, according to your PR agent, that you had to be granted special permission from your public affairs officer in the Army to appear on this show. Who can I send a gift basket to? I don’t feel worthy of this honor, but I’m so grateful you managed to pull it off.

I am curious, how does that process work? If you have an interview, a podcast appearance, or a TV appearance, is it difficult to go to the Army and be like, “I got to go be on TV?” For some reason, in my mind, I had this vision of them being like, “Sure, you can do the interview. Drop and give me twenty,” or “You have to do X number of pullups or pushups before you go on the show.” I was waiting to hear back from your public affairs officer, but we made it happen, and I am so excited to have you here.

MSC: I was very lucky in that when I started competing for Miss Colorado and I was getting ready, our Brigade Public Affairs Officer at the time, Captain Parker, now Major, was very supportive of the whole thing.

JE: A guy no less. That’s so cool.

MSC: He knew that I wanted to talk about military suicide prevention, and that’s very important to our military now, talking about the ways that we can help soldiers and prevent them from feeling like they have no other options. He worked with me, and eventually, I started working a lot more closely with the division staff with the public affairs officer there, Lieutenant Colonel Sanders, who is so wonderful to work with.

It’s less of there are some interviews I can do and some interviews I can’t and more of we need to make sure that it’s in line with my branding with the Army. We go through and discuss the things that we want to hit on. It’s also been wonderful working with her and the entire public affairs staff of the Fourth Infantry Division because they’ve helped me do things that I never thought would be possible. I got back from the Pentagon and spoke to the Sergeant Major of the Army. I also got talked to the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army. That was an opportunity.

JE: Were you talking to them about your platform, which is mental health, which we’re going to get into later in the interview, but was that what you were there for?

MSC: Yes. We were talking about suicide prevention. It was very interesting to talk to leadership because I’m a regular soldier. I’m a specialist.

JE: You’re so young, and you’re having meetings at the Pentagon.

MSC: It was surreal. I was walking around at one point. In the middle of the Pentagon, there’s this little cafe, and it’s a no hat, no salute area. Usually, we have to wear a PC when we’re outside. There are colonels and generals walking around, and I’m walking around, a specialist in my little uniform. I was like, “I don’t know how I got here.”

JE: What inspired you? How old were you when you first joined the military? What inspired you to do so at such a young age?

MSC: I started looking into it when I was 17, and on my 18th birthday, I woke up in the middle of the night and was like, “What am I going to do with my life?” I was at a point where I knew that if I had all these things I wanted to accomplish and I had all these things I wanted to do, I looked at the life that I was living, and I was like, “I’m not really living. I’m just existing.” I’m getting through day to day.

JE: That’s deep at eighteen years old. I’m like, “What party am I going to go to? Do I have cheerleading practice?” That’s awesome.

MSC: I also graduated high school a year early, so that helps me to go like, “I’m an adult now.” It was a meltdown where I realized I could do anything I wanted with my life, and I decided I might as well make it a good one. I called up a recruiter that day. I had been talking to him on and off, but I assumed, and he assumed that I was never going to call him back. I was like, “Sarnt, I’m ready to go. Let’s get the paperwork started. Let’s sign. I want to join the Army.” A week and a half later, I was at the military processing center where you first swear in, and I signed my first contract at eighteen years old on February 2nd, 2018.

JE: I read somewhere that your grandfather was in the US Air Force and had also played a monumental role in inspiring you to join the Armed Forces. How was your relationship with him, and how did that happen?

MSC: We were very close. I grew up in a single-parent household for most of my life. It was my mom and I against the world. My grandparents and I were also very close. My mom was a touring musician for a while. When she said goodbye to music and focused on earning money and taking care of me, she would have to work long hours. For school, I’d go to my grandparents’ house because their house was close to the bus stop, and I would stay with them afterward. We spent a lot of time together. My grandfather was a stoic man. He was a great storyteller. Have you ever seen the movie Big Fish?

JE: I have. It’s one of my favorite movies.

MSC: It’s one of my favorites.

JE: It’s emotional, but it’s a good emotional. It’s a reminder of how much families matter and human connection. It’s very deep.

MSC: We always said that’s his story because he could spin a yarn. My grandmother’s name is Sandra Kay. That was another connection. It’s like, “That’s his movie.” Unfortunately, he passed away in 2016 when I had officially moved in full-time with my grandparents. I spent a long time, even now, trying to decide how I was going to carry on his legacy. He was a man who believed in loving for the sake of loving, giving for the sake of giving and doing whatever you could to make the world a better place just because we all have the opportunity to. It’s not because you’re going to get any glory for it. It’s just the right thing to do.

Love for the sake of loving, give for the sake of giving and do what you can to make the world a better place because you can, and not to get glory or because it's the right thing to do.

JE: He sounds like an incredible man, and we thank him for his service. What better way to honor his legacy than his granddaughter making history the way you are? It is truly crazy. It’s no secret that there is a certain stigma attached to pageantry. I’ve had opportunities myself to enter pageants. I decided against that route. If it were presented to me now, it would pique my interest because of how much it is evolving. Very much like the military, I think the world is rapidly changing.

I had former Miss America and advocate and journalist Gretchen Carlson on my show. How did your fellow compatriots react when you approached them and you were like, “I’m going to go compete in the Miss America competition?” You can be honest here. Did they scoff at you? Were there any mean girl catty comments made, or were they largely supportive?

MSC: I was open about the fact that I wanted to be Miss America one day, starting in basic training. I tried to keep it a secret, but eventually, I was on a FaceTime call during basic. It was one few we had. My friend was saying, “How excited are you that you could be going to Miss America this year?” One of my buddies was like, “What?” We started talking about it. There’s something that people don’t realize. Once you meet a title holder, most people, if you know them first, aren’t going to go, “My opinion of you has completely changed.” They already knew who I was. If there were people who judged me or said, “I think that’s so stupid,” they didn’t say it to my face, so I don’t care about it anyway.

For the most part, the people I surrounded myself with were very supportive, and that continued throughout my career. It’s not just the leadership but my friends, coworkers, and other people in my unit, which I’m in an infantry battalion, so it’s mostly dudes. Everyone knows I’m a huge Captain America, Steve Rogers fan. They started calling me Specialist Colorado after I won Miss Colorado.

It was funny because I had some of the leadership in my battalion because I’m an S2, which means I handle security management, clearances, things like that and the intelligence sector. They would write emails and address me as Specialist Colorado in the email chains, which is so funny. Also, it confused a lot of the new people in the unit. This is what I look like at work. People meet me, and they’re like, “Miss Colorado’s a soldier.” I’m like, “All of us have jobs.”

JE: You shared on your Instagram a quote that read, “You’re more likely to have a son play in the Super Bowl than have a daughter compete at Miss America.” That blew my mind. Explain the statistic and why it’s important.

MSC: You can only compete at Miss America one time. There are 51 women who go to Miss America every year, not counting in 2020 because the competition was withheld because of COVID. I’m not good with football, but I know there are more than 52 people that go to the Super Bowl.

JE: You can play the Super Bowl on a team more than once. That, I know.

MSC: If you take that into account, it’s phenomenal to think that if you have a son and a daughter, and your son plays a Super Bowl one day and your daughter competes at Miss America, your daughter’s the one who’s pulling for the family right there because she made history and beat the odds more than ever, especially when you consider Miss America’s officially a competition.

If you think about the pageant world, it’s huge. Most people don’t see it. I remember there are state competitions in the Miss America organization that have 60 candidates competing for the job every single year. You have to have at least, I believe, it’s four girls competing for one local title. You have thousands of women across the country who are all competing for the chance to walk on Miss America’s stage.

JE: It’s fierce. You only get one shot. If you don’t make it, you can’t go back.

MSC: That’s the hard thing to explain to people too. They always ask me, “Are you going to do it again?” I’m like, “I can’t.”

JE: You’re a finalist in my eyes, in my heart, and for the rest of our country. You’re not just an active duty soldier in the US Army stationed at Fort Carson, Colorado, but you’re a student, and you plan to transfer to the University of Colorado, utilizing your scholarship awards to graduate, hopefully, debt-free with a Bachelor’s degree in Communications. That’s what I studied.

Your future plan includes pursuing a Juris Doctorate and working for the American Civil Liberties Union, yet another career invention. It’s incredible to watch, especially at your age. We’re all about reinventing oneself here on the show, but I have to know, to what do you attribute, Maura, as being that driving force behind being able to reinvent yourself constantly and wear so many hats? What’s your secret?

MSC: A lot of it is self-reflection. Also, I grew up in a single-parent home. The thing my mom would always stress to me growing up is she was like, “You need to get a college degree. You need to finish school. You need to do something. I don’t care what it is. I just hope that you enjoy it and that it’s something that will allow you to build a life you can live and that you don’t have to exist through.” I had ADHD. I was undiagnosed growing up, so school was hard for me. I knew from a young age I wanted to be an attorney, but I also knew you had to be good at school, and I wasn’t. I would take these tests and do super well on tests, and then I would struggle in class if I had to pay attention for too long or if we had homework we took home.

US Army Soldier: It takes a lot of self-reflection to reinvent yourself constantly and wear many hats.

It wasn’t until I was diagnosed that I was like, “This makes sense,” and now I have a way that I can work past it. Instead of working against my brain, I can work with it. That’s another reinvention I had in my life these last couple of years. If you met me at 16 or 17, you would never go like, “She’s going to be the first active soldier to compete at Miss America, and she’s going to go to Miss America.” You’d go like, “she’s sweet.”

JE: The TODAY show did an amazing feature on you about your platform, shining a light on mental health in the military. You know firsthand the barriers to care that exist for military members seeking mental health help after being diagnosed, like you said, with ADHD back in 2020. What is the stigma that surrounds receiving mental health treatment in the military community? How are you challenging it with your platform?

MSC: When I first won Miss Colorado, I was like, “All we need to do is end the stigma. We end the stigma, people get help, and everything is solved.” I did a lot more research and was like, “This is a doozy.” I started talking to leadership and realized these leaders care deeply and are trying to solve the problem, but it’s a bear to try and wrestle with. The thing that I’ve noticed most of all is that peer-to-peer, there is a stigma that exists, and that’s because you have to develop this shell to be able to serve, especially for people who serve in the combat arms roles or the heavy support roles.

JE: When you say shell, you mean like they put up this tough disguise?

MSC: If you think about it, when you’re on a deployment and I haven’t deployed yet, I still want to, but I have lots of friends who have, and they say there’s no time to dwell on like, “I’m sad.” You have to suck it up and finish out your mission. That’s why it’s so important to talk about proactive and preventative care. We need to start monitoring soldiers, not just when they’re struggling, but we need to give them resources so they can stay afloat when things get a little bit harder. We need to have leaders, like team leaders or squad leaders, who are the very basic levels of leadership who have 5 to 10 soldiers each who are able to notice when someone’s struggling and give them skills to deal with that in a healthy way. Peer-to-peer is the biggest challenge that I’ve noticed. There’s a lot that we can do by speaking up.

I talk very openly. I talked about the fact that I care about suicide prevention. I told a four-star general, General Joseph Martin, the Vice Chief of Staff of the Army, that I care about prevention because I’ve been suicidal and attempted to take my own life. I know what it feels like to be there, but I also know that on the other side is a whole other world of possibilities. There’s hope. My hope is that in sharing my story and showing people that if you have good support of chain of command and leadership and friends who support you in a community that you feel connected to, then there is a way to increase your quality of life and live your life, not just move through it because you have to.

JE: I totally agree with your sentiment. I’ve always said that mental health is health. We’re getting to a better place in society where we are recognizing that female veterans I read are more likely to die by suicide than their civilian counterparts, mostly due to the access and willingness to use firearms as opposed to other means of self-harm. That sounds dark, but those are the facts.

Veteran service members are more likely to commit suicide than the average civilian. These statistics are heartbreaking. These are our men and women in uniform who deserve to know that they’re not alone and that they matter. Even at doing the highest duty, serving our country, it’s possible to ask for help and to receive that help. What is a message that you can share with any of my readers out there who are either current active duty military or veterans reading who are struggling with mental health?

MSC: The biggest thing is that it is brave to get help and to talk to people. That first step is scary. It was scary for me too. I had to go to my manager, my NCO. It was for ADHD, but I said, “Something’s not quite right. I’m struggling now.” I was lucky enough to have a leader in her who wanted to help me and give me access to those resources that would help me thrive. If you’re a soldier who’s struggling, don’t be afraid to ask for help because it is brave.

JE: It doesn’t make you any less macho.

MSC: This is just me, but it’s more macho to get help and to be able to be healthy and strong than it is to put on a brave face and then end up hurting yourself.

It's more macho to get help and to be able to be healthy and strong than it is to put on a brave face and then end up hurting yourself.

JE: I saw a funny meme that was obviously directed toward Vladimir Putin. It was like, “Men would rather invade Ukraine than go to therapy.” It’s so true. What you’re saying is on point. I do appreciate your platform. It hits close to home for everyone. Who isn’t struggling with mental health in this day and age? Maura, you’re on the record saying something super cool, very profound. If it’s okay with you, I wanted to show it to my readers.

You said, “I understand that I’m in a unique position, but that doesn’t mean everyone can’t do it. It’s possible. It takes support. It takes a lot of hard work. The Army’s evolving, and it’s not full of the cookie-cutter image we have of a soldier. It’s full of people like you and me. Anyone can be a soldier. Anyone can be a title holder in the Miss America organization. All it takes is that support and that hard work and determination and never letting go of what you want.” That was awesome. I don’t know what age you were when you gave this quote, maybe 21 or 22, but what was the biggest challenge or gender biases that you’ve personally had to overcome in walking the fine line between being an active duty soldier in the US Army while also competing in these pageants?

MSC: It mainly comes from people on social media who have never even met me. I talk about it all the time, that my leadership is amazing. It’s important to say that everyone I work with doesn’t see me as a woman who happens to be in the Army. They see me as a soldier who’s doing her job. The people who signed off and said, “Yes, you should go in Miss Colorado because that you’re going to change the way that people see not only the Miss America organization but the Army,” were two men. My battalion leadership was Lieutenant Colonel Betty, and my sergeant major, Sergeant Major Sun. They were the ones who were like, “We 100% believe in what you’re going to do.” It wasn’t because I was a woman or in spite of me being a woman. It was because they believed in Specialist Spence.

I talk about leadership a lot. I talk about how we got good leadership and emotionally intelligent leadership. When those social media trolls came at me and were like, “It must be nice to be a woman,” I wasn’t treated any differently because of the way that I looked. I was treated according to the work that I put in. It’s because I had leadership that recognized that. I hope that every soldier and every service member has that opportunity. I recognize that they don’t. One of the things that we need to work on is acknowledging how important good leadership is in allowing people to succeed.

JE: I try not to get political on my show because that’s not what this show is about. I try not to go there. If a guest wants to go there, that’s fine. My view is our world is divisive enough, as it is in large part. Thanks to the mainstream media. However, I feel like I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you how you feel about Fox News anchor Tucker Carlson’s comments about women in the military.

I know his comments rattled and sent shockwaves across all military branches when he made those sexist remarks. Even the Pentagon condemned his remarks after mocking US servicewomen in maternity flight suits. He said, “Pregnant women are now going to fight our wars.” Not getting political here because I stand with our men and women in uniform, but Carlson, a man who has never served in the US Armed Forces a day in his life, clearly sees any accommodation to female service members as evidence that the military is going soft.

He is implying that womanhood is somehow a show of weakness and incompatible with the hard work and determination needed to serve under hardship and to fight when necessary. Maura, I don’t know about you, but when I hear comments like that but then see an elderly woman in Ukraine carrying a gun, ready to be deployed to fight Russian troops, as a woman, I’m filled with tremendous pride. What is your reaction to that?

MSC: If we go back to his comments, we have to first address the fact that femininity is not the opposite of strength. I know enough women to note that the two are not mutually exclusive. Also, the fact that a pregnant woman in our Air Force who is serving honorably is in a flight suit doesn’t mean she’s necessarily fighting our wars because you can’t deploy if you’re pregnant. Don’t worry, Tucker.

JE: He didn’t do his research on that

MSC: Also, most of our Air Force people stay in the garrison. They still have maintenance jobs and need to keep the planes running. They need to keep them fueled. They’re going to wear flight suits because it’s easier to take care of, maintain and stay safe than in the normal uniform. It’s also ridiculous to say that women should not. It’s so mind-blowing to me because it’s this old idea that men are always strong and women are inherently weak, and that’s why it’s bad that there are women in our military.

In reality, I’ve met men who I would not want to put anywhere near our armed forces. I’ve met women I’ve served with and who I haven’t that I look at and go, “I would trust you with my life. I would do anything to have you on my squad.” It’s insane to me that we still have this idea that only women now are fighting our wars. Women have been fighting America’s war since the Revolutionary War. They have always been on the battlefield. It’s just in the last couple of decades that we’ve finally recognized the contributions women make to our armed forces.

JE: Women in the military are a unique force of nature. In an effort to defend and fight for their country, they’ve been faced with countless challenges and obstacles denying them that right. Now, only about 1 in 6 of the US military’s nearly 1.3 million active-duty troops is female. The Air Force has the highest percentage, hovering around 20%, whereas the Marines have less than half that.

I thought this was attention-grabbing because a study found female military personnel was 28% less likely to reenlist than men due to concerns related to family planning and childcare, sexism and sexual assault, which happens in the military. What changes, if any, Maura, do you hope? I see you as a catalyst for change. I really do. The future looks bright because of women like you. What changes, if any, do you hope to see in the future for women in the military?

MSC: It goes back to leadership. We need leadership that encourages women and sees them for their ability to do their job and serve, not because of how they look. When we start addressing that, we start acknowledging not only the things that women accomplish but the things they do day-to-day. There are very boring things I do day in, day out that I don’t need a pat on the back for, but I don’t do it any worse or any better than any man just because I’m a woman. It depends on the person.

In order to see more women reenlisting and more women joining the military, we need to start addressing sexual assault and sexual harassment more seriously. We have leadership that takes it very seriously, but it’s an epidemic that exists within the civilian sector and the military sector. There’s a lot of shame attached to it too. I’m a woman. I’ve had experiences being harassed. I’ve had experiences where friends tell me about things they’ve experienced. It’s very difficult to take that first step.

I would say it’s even scarier than the stigma that’s attached to receiving mental health care because at least when you go and get mental health care, if you go to therapy, if you receive treatment, people can say like, “They have depression,” or “They have a substance abuse disorder they want to solve. They want to get help for that.” This applies to men and women. If you have been a victim of sexual assault or sexual harassment, there’s a big shame attached to it. Women who are asked, “What were you doing? What were you wearing? Why were you out?” I had friends who were just in their rooms.

JE: Tell me about it. I’m a living testament to that. I hold my head high proudly. I shared this a few episodes ago. I’m a survivor of sexual assault, of rape. I mentioned this in Gretchen’s interview. I hold my head high and share my story because I had to work through a lot of that shame and guilt. I blamed myself for a lot of what had happened to me, which I know is very common among survivors of this harassment and assault. At the end of the day, it took a lot of work, therapy, self-reflection and digging deep and realizing that my story is the key that could unlock someone else’s prison. The more we talk about it and share our traumas and these issues that need to be solved, the better and safer it’s going to be for everyone.

MSC: There’s also a great deal of shame because people don’t want to think it could happen to them. It’s easier to say like, “The victim did something.” It doesn’t matter if she asked for it or was in the wrong place at the wrong time. “She did something wrong, and I’m not going to do that, so I’m safe.”

JE: “What were you wearing? Were you drinking ahead of time? Were you on drugs?” No. Rape is rape. Harassment is harassment. It doesn’t matter. I’m glad you shed light on that, women in the military, hearing your perspective firsthand and what you’ve experienced and witnessed, it’s not lost on me that it is an issue there. It’s not like it’s nonexistent. I do believe that women like you are the future, Maura. You’re going to bring some much-needed change.

Maura, your story is so beyond powerful because you’re setting an example for many young girls and guys out there that they can be anything they want to be despite the lies that society might tell them. Whether their dream is to join the Army, compete in Miss America, or do both like you’re doing, if it’s something you want to do, then you should absolutely go for it.

MSC: The worst thing someone can say is no. Even then, if you want it, just keep going for it.

JE: I use the word no as ammunition. It lights a fire under me because when I’m rejected from an opportunity, a speaking gig, or a job, great. Onto the next. Onward and upward.

MSC: I remember hearing that NO is a shorthand for Next Opportunity. I remember hearing, “No. It’s not your time.” I finally got to the point where I was like, “I’m not going to know when my time is.” I’m not going to bring too much religion into it, but I’m a Christian. I’m like, “I trust that whenever God’s timing is when his timing is, but I’m going to do everything I can to ready myself for when it is my time.” That way, I don’t have to go, “I missed a great opportunity.” Instead, I can say, “I prepared myself to the best of my abilities.” If it’s a no, next opportunity. If it’s a yes, then wonderful. All that hard work paid off.

No is a shorthand for the next opportunity.

JE: There’s a quote I love. I forget the exact wording, but it’s like, “When the wind did not blow her way, she adjusted her sails and sailed off into a new direction.” Oftentimes rejection and being told no, more likely than not, puts us on a different trajectory and a path that we never would’ve imagined for ourselves, but it makes us so much happier and fulfilled in the long run.

MSC: When I was eighteen years old, I was struggling because I thought I was going to do what everyone else did. I thought I was going to graduate high school and go to college and get my degree, and then I would maybe get my Master’s and start working. Eventually, I’d go to law school.

JE: Here you are juggling combat boots and wearing a crown. Who would’ve thought?

MSC: Here I am. My life fell apart before it came together, but that’s okay.

JE: It has to happen sometimes.

MSC: It was a mess, but it’s one of the things that makes me so grateful for the life that I have now. Sometimes I wake up and go, “I’m so glad I get to do this.” When I was 15 or 16 years old, I started writing in my journal, saying, “I’m going to write my own happy ending.”

JE: Don’t give anyone else the pen.

MSC: Yes. I am the author of my destiny. I’m going to write it for myself. One of the more beautiful things is that this is the happy ending I want. I’m Miss Colorado. I’m in a career that I love. I’m serving my country. More than that, I’ve realized that the story itself is the most beautiful part of all of it. It’s not just the ending. I’m very thankful to have gotten that perspective over the last couple of years.

Realize that the story itself is the most beautiful part of all of it. It's not just the ending.

JE: It’s like a modern-day princess story. Maura, you make your family and our country enormously proud. Thank you for your service. Thank you for coming to the show. I don’t want to take up any more of your time here. I know you have much better things to do. Seriously, Maura, thank you. You are a joy and an honor to have you on.

MSC: Thank you so much

JE: To all my readers, be sure to rate, review and subscribe to the show. That’s available wherever you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, YouTube. You name it, it’s there. That was Maura Spence-Carroll. Thank you for reading.

Important Links

Maura Spence-Carroll
Gretchen Carlson – Past episode
Spotify – REINVENTED with Jen Eckhart
Apple – REINVENTED with Jen Eckhart
YouTube – Jennifer Eckhart